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Jeff Fox
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 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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On Nov 9, 10:55 am, "FreeRTOS.org" <noem...@given.com> wrote:
| Quote: | C is still king in the lower end embedded market.
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When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
Best Wishes |
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linnix
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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On Nov 11, 2:21 pm, Jeff Fox <f...@ultratechnology.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 9, 10:55 am, "FreeRTOS.org" <noem...@given.com> wrote:
C is still king in the lower end embedded market.
When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
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RAM is irrelevant with choice of language. You need same amount of
RAM for data structures in C or ASM. Program code is more of an issue
with C. But with 16K of 8 bits code space for $0.25 (including LCD
controller), who cares about code inefficiency. |
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linnix
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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On Nov 12, 11:02 am, Frank Buss <f...@frank-buss.de> wrote:
| Quote: | Jeff Fox wrote:
When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
Do you have an example of a microcontroller for <$0.10? How many do you
need to buy for this price?
One of the cheapest microcontroller I've found, but still with some nice
features, is this one,
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1K flash is quite useless.
| Quote: | for $0.36, if you buy 7,500:
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We found one with 16K ROM for $0.25 at 25,000 pcs.
Our C compiled app is around 8K, so plenty of room to grow.
| Quote: | http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MC9R...
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You have to search outside digikey, if you are serious about cost. |
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Paul E. Bennett
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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linnix wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 11, 2:21 pm, Jeff Fox <f...@ultratechnology.com> wrote:
On Nov 9, 10:55 am, "FreeRTOS.org" <noem...@given.com> wrote:
C is still king in the lower end embedded market.
When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
RAM is irrelevant with choice of language. You need same amount of
RAM for data structures in C or ASM. Program code is more of an issue
with C. But with 16K of 8 bits code space for $0.25 (including LCD
controller), who cares about code inefficiency.
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When all the resource you have is 256 bytes RAM and 4k Code space then
you do tend to need to pay very close attention to what is assembled or
compiled and what data-structures are being used and when. ;>
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
******************************************************************** |
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Frank Buss
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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Jeff Fox wrote:
| Quote: | When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
|
Do you have an example of a microcontroller for <$0.10? How many do you
need to buy for this price?
One of the cheapest microcontroller I've found, but still with some nice
features, is this one, for $0.36, if you buy 7,500:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MC9RS08KA1CSCRTR-ND
But maybe it costs even less, if you order a million of it.
--
Frank Buss, fb@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de |
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Charlie Springer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:49:59 -0800, Paul E. Bennett wrote
(in article <6o0ja8F19ek5U1@mid.individual.net>):
| Quote: | When all the resource you have is 256 bytes RAM and 4k Code space then
you do tend to need to pay very close attention to what is assembled or
compiled and what data-structures are being used and when.
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Quite a while ago I was using Cosmic C on HC11's and was amazed at the code
it produced. Hello World was something like 28 bytes. Good C compilers for
micros can do tricks I wouldn't do in assembly for readability reasons. There
are plenty of things I would still code by hand but anything reasonably
"normal" seems to work out. However, I still think C sucks as a language.
-- Charlie Springer |
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Charlie Springer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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Changed my mind :-)
Go to Sparkfun and get this
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8326
and twiddle bits in BASIC for a while.
-- Charlie Springer |
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Jeff Fox
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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On Nov 13, 7:01 am, Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Think a data base of programming tricks applied where appropriate.
In time embedded C compilers produce some incredible. I am amazed
at some of the code that comes out of the compilers we have written
when combinations of code invokes several rule sets and the produced code
is not something we would have thought of.
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Your software sounds impressive. One reading of "C is King" is that
out
of all the examples the best one is king. In that sense your C
compiler
might be king.
I was thinking of the more common use of the phrase that, "in this
field
something is King" means it is the most common or most dominate thing.
What I meant when I said that C had not been King in the low-end
embedded
computing is that there is a LO
| Quote: | Regards
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limitedhttp://www.bytecraft.com |
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Walter Banks
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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Charlie Springer wrote:
| Quote: | Quite a while ago I was using Cosmic C on HC11's and was amazed at the code
it produced. Hello World was something like 28 bytes. Good C compilers for
micros can do tricks I wouldn't do in assembly for readability reasons.
|
Think a data base of programming tricks applied where appropriate.
In time embedded C compilers produce some incredible. I am amazed
at some of the code that comes out of the compilers we have written
when combinations of code invokes several rule sets and the produced code
is not something we would have thought of.
Regards
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com |
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Walter Banks
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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Charlie Springer wrote:
| Quote: | Quite a while ago I was using Cosmic C on HC11's and was amazed at the code
it produced. Hello World was something like 28 bytes. Good C compilers for
micros can do tricks I wouldn't do in assembly for readability reasons.
|
Think a data base of programming tricks applied where appropriate.
In time embedded C compilers produce some incredible code. I am amazed
at some of the code that comes out of the compilers we have written
when combinations of code invokes several rule sets and the produced code
is not something we would have thought of.
Regards
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com |
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Jeff Fox
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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On Nov 13, 7:03 am, Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Think a data base of programming tricks applied where appropriate.
In time embedded C compilers produce some incredible code. I am amazed
at some of the code that comes out of the compilers we have written
when combinations of code invokes several rule sets and the produced code
is not something we would have thought of.
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Your software sounds impressive. One reading of "C is King"
is that out of all the examples the best one is king. In that
sense your C compiler might be king.
I was using it more in the form of the most widely used thing is
King or that with the largest market share is king. I still don't
think C dominates in the <$0.10 low-end embedded area.
Best Wishes |
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CBFalconer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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Jeff Fox wrote:
| Quote: |
.... snip ...
Your software sounds impressive. One reading of "C is King" is that
out
of all the examples the best one is king. In that sense your C
compiler
might be king.
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You apparently have Firefox set to wrap output text at 72 char,
which is fine (although I recommend 67). However you should not
terminate your sentences with <return> (or <enter>) - let the
newsreader do it. Just use the <enter> to install a blank line, to
mark paragraphs. That will avoid the funny output you have above.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section. |
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Chris H
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: Re: New to Embedded Software |
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In message
<636dc588-c606-4825-a524-99a01ad39624@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com>,
linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> writes
| Quote: | On Nov 12, 11:02 am, Frank Buss <f...@frank-buss.de> wrote:
Jeff Fox wrote:
When I think of lower end embedded market I think mostly of 4-bit
and 8-bit, <$0.10, <256bytes RAM. C hasn't been king there as
far as I know.
Do you have an example of a microcontroller for <$0.10? How many do you
need to buy for this price?
One of the cheapest microcontroller I've found, but still with some nice
features, is this one,
1K flash is quite useless.
|
It depends what you are doing.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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